iOS 5.1 SDK for Xcode 4.2 for Snow Leopard?

  • Is there a link anywhere on the iOS dev site for this?

    Upgrading my iOS device to 5.1 just rendered it useless for testing since Xcode will not build to it anymore because Xcode 4.2 only has iOS 5.0 as the latest OS and there appears to be no method to download the 5.1 SDK.

    - Alex Zavatone
  • Hi Alex,

    iOS 5.1 development requires Xcode 4.3, which requires Mac OS X 10.7.3.

    Mac OS X 10.6 had a good long run, and was supported by no less than 12 versions of Xcode. That said, for development purposes the time has now come to move forward to Mac OS X 10.7 and Xcode 4.3.

    Joar

    On 12 mar 2012, at 07:30, Alex Zavatone wrote:

    > Is there a link anywhere on the iOS dev site for this?
    >
    > Upgrading my iOS device to 5.1 just rendered it useless for testing since Xcode will not build to it anymore because Xcode 4.2 only has iOS 5.0 as the latest OS and there appears to be no method to download the 5.1 SDK.
    >
    > - Alex Zavatone
    >
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
    > Xcode-users mailing list      (<Xcode-users...>)
    > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
    > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/xcode-users/<joar...>
    >
    > This email sent to <joar...>
  • You're serious?

    So, all the bouncing scroll bars,
    all the gratuitous animation,
    all the removed and moved features in apps I use,
    all the bubble wrapping of the OS in 10.7 (protecting of the Library folder),
    the screens wobbling if I use magic mouse with gestures off (I've got 3) are the usability annoyances I have to deal with simply to code for 5.1?

    No way.

    No way in hell.

    I've wasted way too much time with Lion trying to get it to a usable/non annoying state.

    I really hope this garbage is turned off in Mountain Lion.

    Currently reverting my devices to 5.0.

    Seriously.

    On Mar 12, 2012, at 10:51 AM, Joar Wingfors wrote:

    > Hi Alex,
    >
    > iOS 5.1 development requires Xcode 4.3, which requires Mac OS X 10.7.3.
    >
    > Mac OS X 10.6 had a good long run, and was supported by no less than 12 versions of Xcode. That said, for development purposes the time has now come to move forward to Mac OS X 10.7 and Xcode 4.3.
    >
    > Joar
    >
    >
    > On 12 mar 2012, at 07:30, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >
    >> Is there a link anywhere on the iOS dev site for this?
    >>
    >> Upgrading my iOS device to 5.1 just rendered it useless for testing since Xcode will not build to it anymore because Xcode 4.2 only has iOS 5.0 as the latest OS and there appears to be no method to download the 5.1 SDK.
    >>
    >> - Alex Zavatone
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> _______________________________________________
    >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
    >> Xcode-users mailing list      (<Xcode-users...>)
    >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
    >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/xcode-users/<joar...>
    >>
    >> This email sent to <joar...>
    >

    - Alex Zavatone
  • You forgot:

    "Get off my lawn!"

    ;-)

    Joar

    On 12 mar 2012, at 08:00, Alex Zavatone wrote:

    > You're serious?
    >
    > So, all the bouncing scroll bars,
    > all the gratuitous animation,
    > all the removed and moved features in apps I use,
    > all the bubble wrapping of the OS in 10.7 (protecting of the Library folder),
    > the screens wobbling if I use magic mouse with gestures off (I've got 3) are the usability annoyances I have to deal with simply to code for 5.1?
    >
    > No way.
    >
    > No way in hell.
    >
    > I've wasted way too much time with Lion trying to get it to a usable/non annoying state.
    >
    > I really hope this garbage is turned off in Mountain Lion.
    >
    > Currently reverting my devices to 5.0.
    >
    > Seriously.
    >
    >
    > On Mar 12, 2012, at 10:51 AM, Joar Wingfors wrote:
    >
    >> Hi Alex,
    >>
    >> iOS 5.1 development requires Xcode 4.3, which requires Mac OS X 10.7.3.
    >>
    >> Mac OS X 10.6 had a good long run, and was supported by no less than 12 versions of Xcode. That said, for development purposes the time has now come to move forward to Mac OS X 10.7 and Xcode 4.3.
    >>
    >> Joar
    >>
    >>
    >> On 12 mar 2012, at 07:30, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >>
    >>> Is there a link anywhere on the iOS dev site for this?
    >>>
    >>> Upgrading my iOS device to 5.1 just rendered it useless for testing since Xcode will not build to it anymore because Xcode 4.2 only has iOS 5.0 as the latest OS and there appears to be no method to download the 5.1 SDK.
    >>>
    >>> - Alex Zavatone
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> _______________________________________________
    >>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
    >>> Xcode-users mailing list      (<Xcode-users...>)
    >>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
    >>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/xcode-users/<joar...>
    >>>
    >>> This email sent to <joar...>
    >>
    >
    > - Alex Zavatone
    >
    >
    >
  • No, really.  Lion is such an annoyance, it's not the enjoyable Mac OS that we've liked for so long.

    I've spent 200 bucks on three "magic mice" and even with gestures off, the safari window wobbles if I touch the mouse wrong.  Apps with features that I used to use were removed or replaced with useless items.  If Lion means I have to buy new mice, then well, I reserve my opinion.

    Everything is animated - which sucks on a 27 inch screen.  It's distracting, annoying and serves no purpose.  You have to hack the OS to turn them off.  This wastes time.
    The scroll bars bounce - you can't turn them off - and they are skinny and easy to miss with a mouse - with no way to revert them to the useful scroll bars that we have come to rely on.
    Mail bounce?  I use it when my relatives send me political messages.
    Safari's downloads window has moved, it's now a useless popup that you can't trigger with a command key.
    The "we have duplicates" message when copying files has been replaced with the useless Windows 7 error message, which is worse than the perfectly good one we had.
    Hardcoded prevention of saving into the Library folder??
    Safari windows wobbling when I try to scroll, or the text resizing when the OS thinks I'm trying to resize through a gesture.
    You can't turn gestures off on a per app basis.
    The loss of Spaces - that was part of my workflow.
    Scrolling with the magic mouse in Safari by flicking scrolled the last window I had selected until the scroll bars reached the end of the scroll region.
    Safari is now a complete memory pig.

    And on and on and on and on.  I installed Lion on 2 systems and it was such a mess, that I question why any person would willingly pay to have their workflow and expectations of the Mac look and feel seriously derailed.

    Lion cost me a crapload of time and money trying to get it to be usable.  It's not worth it.

    I really really hope that Mountain Lion doesn't destroy the Mac experience as much as Lion did when compared to Snow Leopard.

    Too many things I used and relied on changed for the worse in Lion when compared to Snow Leopard.  I don't intend to spend 30 bucks to upgrade have to spend hours or days to get the OS back to a usable state.

    On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Joar Wingfors wrote:

    > You forgot:
    >
    > "Get off my lawn!"
    >
    > ;-)
    >
    > Joar
    >
    >
    > On 12 mar 2012, at 08:00, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >
    >> You're serious?
    >>
    >> So, all the bouncing scroll bars,
    >> all the gratuitous animation,
    >> all the removed and moved features in apps I use,
    >> all the bubble wrapping of the OS in 10.7 (protecting of the Library folder),
    >> the screens wobbling if I use magic mouse with gestures off (I've got 3) are the usability annoyances I have to deal with simply to code for 5.1?
    >>
    >> No way.
    >>
    >> No way in hell.
    >>
    >> I've wasted way too much time with Lion trying to get it to a usable/non annoying state.
    >>
    >> I really hope this garbage is turned off in Mountain Lion.
    >>
    >> Currently reverting my devices to 5.0.
    >>
    >> Seriously.
    >>
    >>
    >> On Mar 12, 2012, at 10:51 AM, Joar Wingfors wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hi Alex,
    >>>
    >>> iOS 5.1 development requires Xcode 4.3, which requires Mac OS X 10.7.3.
    >>>
    >>> Mac OS X 10.6 had a good long run, and was supported by no less than 12 versions of Xcode. That said, for development purposes the time has now come to move forward to Mac OS X 10.7 and Xcode 4.3.
    >>>
    >>> Joar
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> On 12 mar 2012, at 07:30, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Is there a link anywhere on the iOS dev site for this?
    >>>>
    >>>> Upgrading my iOS device to 5.1 just rendered it useless for testing since Xcode will not build to it anymore because Xcode 4.2 only has iOS 5.0 as the latest OS and there appears to be no method to download the 5.1 SDK.
    >>>>
    >>>> - Alex Zavatone
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> _______________________________________________
    >>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
    >>>> Xcode-users mailing list      (<Xcode-users...>)
    >>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
    >>>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/xcode-users/<joar...>
    >>>>
    >>>> This email sent to <joar...>
    >>>
    >>
    >> - Alex Zavatone
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >

    - Alex Zavatone
  • No, really.  Lion is such an annoyance, it's not the enjoyable Mac OS that we've liked for so long.

    I've spent 200 bucks on three "magic mice" and even with gestures off, the safari window wobbles if I touch the mouse wrong.  Apps with features that I used to use were removed or replaced with useless items.  If Lion means I have to buy new mice, then well, I reserve my opinion.

    Everything is animated - which sucks on a 27 inch screen.  It's distracting, annoying and serves no purpose.  You have to hack the OS to turn them off.  This wastes time.
    The scroll bars bounce - you can't turn them off - and they are skinny and easy to miss with a mouse - with no way to revert them to the useful scroll bars that we have come to rely on.
    Mail bounce?  I use it when my relatives send me political messages.
    Safari's downloads window has moved, it's now a useless popup that you can't trigger with a command key.
    The "we have duplicates" message when copying files has been replaced with the useless Windows 7 error message, which is worse than the perfectly good one we had.
    Hardcoded prevention of saving into the Library folder??
    Safari windows wobbling when I try to scroll, or the text resizing when the OS thinks I'm trying to resize through a gesture.
    You can't turn gestures off on a per app basis.
    The loss of Spaces - that was part of my workflow.
    Scrolling with the magic mouse in Safari by flicking scrolled the last window I had selected until the scroll bars reached the end of the scroll region.
    Safari is now a complete memory pig.

    And on and on and on and on.  I installed Lion on 2 systems and it was such a mess, that I question why any person would willingly pay to have their workflow and expectations of the Mac look and feel seriously derailed.

    Lion cost me a crapload of time and money trying to get it to be usable.  It's not worth it.

    I really really hope that Mountain Lion doesn't destroy the Mac experience as much as Lion did when compared to Snow Leopard.

    Too many things I used and relied on changed for the worse in Lion when compared to Snow Leopard.  I don't intend to spend 30 bucks to upgrade have to spend hours or days to get the OS back to a usable state.

    On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Joar Wingfors wrote:

    > You forgot:
    >
    > "Get off my lawn!"
    >
    > ;-)
    >
    > Joar
    >
    >
    > On 12 mar 2012, at 08:00, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >
    >> You're serious?
    >>
    >> So, all the bouncing scroll bars,
    >> all the gratuitous animation,
    >> all the removed and moved features in apps I use,
    >> all the bubble wrapping of the OS in 10.7 (protecting of the Library folder),
    >> the screens wobbling if I use magic mouse with gestures off (I've got 3) are the usability annoyances I have to deal with simply to code for 5.1?
    >>
    >> No way.
    >>
    >> No way in hell.
    >>
    >> I've wasted way too much time with Lion trying to get it to a usable/non annoying state.
    >>
    >> I really hope this garbage is turned off in Mountain Lion.
    >>
    >> Currently reverting my devices to 5.0.
    >>
    >> Seriously.
    >>
    >>
    >> On Mar 12, 2012, at 10:51 AM, Joar Wingfors wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hi Alex,
    >>>
    >>> iOS 5.1 development requires Xcode 4.3, which requires Mac OS X 10.7.3.
    >>>
    >>> Mac OS X 10.6 had a good long run, and was supported by no less than 12 versions of Xcode. That said, for development purposes the time has now come to move forward to Mac OS X 10.7 and Xcode 4.3.
    >>>
    >>> Joar
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> On 12 mar 2012, at 07:30, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Is there a link anywhere on the iOS dev site for this?
    >>>>
    >>>> Upgrading my iOS device to 5.1 just rendered it useless for testing since Xcode will not build to it anymore because Xcode 4.2 only has iOS 5.0 as the latest OS and there appears to be no method to download the 5.1 SDK.
    >>>>
    >>>> - Alex Zavatone
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> _______________________________________________
    >>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
    >>>> Xcode-users mailing list      (<Xcode-users...>)
    >>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
    >>>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/xcode-users/<joar...>
    >>>>
    >>>> This email sent to <joar...>
    >>>
    >>
    >> - Alex Zavatone
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >

    - Alex Zavatone
  • Right, we're just resistant to new technology that is clearly superior, which is why I gave Apple $3700 for a 6-core Mac Pro...

    Alex, you may be interested in this thread in the developer forums:

    https://devforums.apple.com/thread/144061

    -Jeff

    On Mar 12, 2012, at 10:18 AM, Joar Wingfors wrote:

    > You forgot:
    >
    > "Get off my lawn!"
    >
    > ;-)
    >
    > Joar
    >
    >
    > On 12 mar 2012, at 08:00, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >
    >> You're serious?
    >>
    >> So, all the bouncing scroll bars,
    >> all the gratuitous animation,
    >> all the removed and moved features in apps I use,
    >> all the bubble wrapping of the OS in 10.7 (protecting of the Library folder),
    >> the screens wobbling if I use magic mouse with gestures off (I've got 3) are the usability annoyances I have to deal with simply to code for 5.1?
    >>
    >> No way.
    >>
    >> No way in hell.
    >>
    >> I've wasted way too much time with Lion trying to get it to a usable/non annoying state.
    >>
    >> I really hope this garbage is turned off in Mountain Lion.
    >>
    >> Currently reverting my devices to 5.0.
    >>
    >> Seriously.
    >>
    >>
    >> On Mar 12, 2012, at 10:51 AM, Joar Wingfors wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hi Alex,
    >>>
    >>> iOS 5.1 development requires Xcode 4.3, which requires Mac OS X 10.7.3.
    >>>
    >>> Mac OS X 10.6 had a good long run, and was supported by no less than 12 versions of Xcode. That said, for development purposes the time has now come to move forward to Mac OS X 10.7 and Xcode 4.3.
    >>>
    >>> Joar
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> On 12 mar 2012, at 07:30, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Is there a link anywhere on the iOS dev site for this?
    >>>>
    >>>> Upgrading my iOS device to 5.1 just rendered it useless for testing since Xcode will not build to it anymore because Xcode 4.2 only has iOS 5.0 as the latest OS and there appears to be no method to download the 5.1 SDK.
    >>>>
    >>>> - Alex Zavatone
  • On 12 mars 2012, at 16:37, Alex Zavatone wrote:

    > No, really.  Lion is such an annoyance, it's not the enjoyable Mac OS that we've liked for so long.
    > [rant removed]

    Let me beg to differ. When I am forced to go back to Snow Leopard, I feel cramped. When I return to Lion, I feel a breath of fresh air.

    But all this doesn't matter. You have your opinion, I have mine. Neither one is worth Apple supporting an obsolete operating system to develop for its current OS offering.

    If you were a Mac OS developer, would you demand to be able to develop for the latest Mac OS using an obsolete one?
    If you didn't like Snow Leopard, would you demand to be able to develop with Leopard (Tiger, Panther, Puma, Cheetah, Rhapsody, Mac OS 9, 8, 7…)?
    If you didn't like the Macintosh, would you demand to be able to develop with….

    If you want to let the world evolve without you, you'll eventually face extinction.

    I hate Xcode 4's windowing scheme like there is no tomorrow, I have voiced why often and loud. Yet I decided to use Xcode 4 even where Xcode 3 could still be made to work. I curse it everyday, but I'm still better off keeping up to date.

    So you need to make your choice:

    - you can (for the time being) go back to 5.0. And very soon be left behind.
    - you can embrace the future and try to make it better.

    I'd rather see Apple invest into fixing Xcode 4's bugs rather than support an obsolete OS.

    Jean-Denis
  • On Mar 12, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Jean-Denis MUYS wrote:

    >
    > On 12 mars 2012, at 16:37, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >
    >> No, really.  Lion is such an annoyance, it's not the enjoyable Mac OS that we've liked for so long.
    >> [rant removed]
    >
    > Let me beg to differ. When I am forced to go back to Snow Leopard, I feel cramped. When I return to Lion, I feel a breath of fresh air.
    >
    > But all this doesn't matter. You have your opinion, I have mine. Neither one is worth Apple supporting an obsolete operating system to develop for its current OS offering.
    >
    > If you were a Mac OS developer, would you demand to be able to develop for the latest Mac OS using an obsolete one?
    > If you didn't like Snow Leopard, would you demand to be able to develop with Leopard (Tiger, Panther, Puma, Cheetah, Rhapsody, Mac OS 9, 8, 7…)?
    > If you didn't like the Macintosh, would you demand to be able to develop with….

    Well, wasn't this allowed for a long period of time?  Think about the education market.

    What sucks here is iOS 5.1 was released on to a device that I have provisioned without a warning that I could no longer use it for development if I upgraded.

    Apple still ships Xcode 4.2 for Snow Leopard, for iOS development doesn't it? It's right there on the website.

    > If you want to let the world evolve without you, you'll eventually face extinction.
    >
    > I hate Xcode 4's windowing scheme like there is no tomorrow, I have voiced why often and loud. Yet I decided to use Xcode 4 even where Xcode 3 could still be made to work. I curse it everyday, but I'm still better off keeping up to date.

    Yeah, I hate it too.

    >
    > So you need to make your choice:
    >
    > - you can (for the time being) go back to 5.0. And very soon be left behind.
    > - you can embrace the future and try to make it better.

    For my current projects, there is NOTHING in iOS 5.1 that I need to use that isn't in 5.0.1

    - Alex Zavatone
  • On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:03 AM, Jean-Denis MUYS wrote:

    > Neither one is worth Apple supporting an obsolete operating system to develop for its current OS offering.

    Snow Leopard is not obsolete. It is still fully supported, and Apple has released new software updates for it as recently as last month.

    -Jeff
  • >
    > iOS 5.1 development requires Xcode 4.3, which requires Mac OS X 10.7.3.

    I still use Xcode 3.2.6 and iOS SDK 4.3 ;-)

    So far I have been able to test with my iPad 2 running iOS 5.0.1
    (and some other iOS devices with various older versions of iOS)

    If I upgrade a device to iOS  5.1, can I still use Xcode 3.2.6 and iOS SDK
    4.3?

    I ask because when I first upgraded my iPad 2  to iOS 5, then 5.0.1
    there was first a always a problem for Xcode to build and run on the device,
    then eventually it worked, I never quite understood what made it work?

    Rolf

    >
    > Mac OS X 10.6 had a good long run, and was supported by no less than 12
    > versions of Xcode.
    > That said, for development purposes the time has now come to move forward
    > to Mac OS X 10.7 and Xcode 4.3.
    >
    > Joar
    >
    >
    > On 12 mar 2012, at 07:30, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >
    >> Is there a link anywhere on the iOS dev site for this?
    >>
    >> Upgrading my iOS device to 5.1 just rendered it useless for testing since
    >> Xcode will not build to it anymore because Xcode 4.2 only has iOS 5.0 as
    >> the latest OS and there appears to be no method to download the 5.1 SDK.
    >>
    >> - Alex Zavatone
    >>
    >>
    >>
  • Yeah, I had 2 12 core Mac Pros before I left Verizon and bought the quad core 17 inch last year to add to my collection.

    I'm not complaining about the hardware.

    What's so exactly superior about Lion that doesn't get in your way and infuriate the hell out of you?

    If Lion's GUI settings could be set back to Snow Leopard, and still offer me all the functionality I had relied on, I would be a happy adopter.
    I loved Tiger, then I loved Leopard better, then Snow Leopard was ever better.  The OSes were faster, the GUIs were consistent.

    Lion broke all that and didn't allow a switch to turn the GUI back to what the past 10 years of the Mac experience had set as the standard.

    On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:49 AM, Jeff Johnson wrote:

    > Right, we're just resistant to new technology that is clearly superior, which is why I gave Apple $3700 for a 6-core Mac Pro...
    >
    > Alex, you may be interested in this thread in the developer forums:
    >
    > https://devforums.apple.com/thread/144061
    >
    > -Jeff
    >
    >
    > On Mar 12, 2012, at 10:18 AM, Joar Wingfors wrote:
    >
    >> You forgot:
    >>
    >> "Get off my lawn!"
    >>
    >> ;-)
    >>
    >> Joar
    >>
    >>
    >> On 12 mar 2012, at 08:00, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >>
    >>> You're serious?
    >>>
    >>> So, all the bouncing scroll bars,
    >>> all the gratuitous animation,
    >>> all the removed and moved features in apps I use,
    >>> all the bubble wrapping of the OS in 10.7 (protecting of the Library folder),
    >>> the screens wobbling if I use magic mouse with gestures off (I've got 3) are the usability annoyances I have to deal with simply to code for 5.1?
    >>>
    >>> No way.
    >>>
    >>> No way in hell.
    >>>
    >>> I've wasted way too much time with Lion trying to get it to a usable/non annoying state.
    >>>
    >>> I really hope this garbage is turned off in Mountain Lion.
    >>>
    >>> Currently reverting my devices to 5.0.
    >>>
    >>> Seriously.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> On Mar 12, 2012, at 10:51 AM, Joar Wingfors wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Hi Alex,
    >>>>
    >>>> iOS 5.1 development requires Xcode 4.3, which requires Mac OS X 10.7.3.
    >>>>
    >>>> Mac OS X 10.6 had a good long run, and was supported by no less than 12 versions of Xcode. That said, for development purposes the time has now come to move forward to Mac OS X 10.7 and Xcode 4.3.
    >>>>
    >>>> Joar
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> On 12 mar 2012, at 07:30, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Is there a link anywhere on the iOS dev site for this?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Upgrading my iOS device to 5.1 just rendered it useless for testing since Xcode will not build to it anymore because Xcode 4.2 only has iOS 5.0 as the latest OS and there appears to be no method to download the 5.1 SDK.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> - Alex Zavatone
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
    > Xcode-users mailing list      (<Xcode-users...>)
    > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
    > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/xcode-users/<zav...>
    >
    > This email sent to <zav...>

    - Alex Zavatone
  • On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:37 AM, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    > Safari's downloads window has moved, it's now a useless popup that you can't trigger with a command key.

    Actually the same old command key works -- Command-Option-L.

    --Andy
  • On 12 mars 2012, at 17:19, Jeff Johnson wrote:

    > On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:03 AM, Jean-Denis MUYS wrote:
    >
    >> Neither one is worth Apple supporting an obsolete operating system to develop for its current OS offering.
    >
    > Snow Leopard is not obsolete. It is still fully supported, and Apple has released new software updates for it as recently as last month.
    >
    > -Jeff
    >

    Fine. Substitute "old" or "older".
  • On Mar 12, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Jean-Denis MUYS wrote:

    >
    > On 12 mars 2012, at 16:37, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >
    >> No, really.  Lion is such an annoyance, it's not the enjoyable Mac OS that we've liked for so long.
    >> [rant removed]
    >
    > Let me beg to differ. When I am forced to go back to Snow Leopard, I feel cramped. When I return to Lion, I feel a breath of fresh air.
    >
    > But all this doesn't matter. You have your opinion, I have mine. Neither one is worth Apple supporting an obsolete operating system to develop for its current OS offering.
    >
    > If you were a Mac OS developer, would you demand to be able to develop for the latest Mac OS using an obsolete one?
    > If you didn't like Snow Leopard, would you demand to be able to develop with Leopard (Tiger, Panther, Puma, Cheetah, Rhapsody, Mac OS 9, 8, 7…)?
    > If you didn't like the Macintosh, would you demand to be able to develop with….

    Well, wasn't this allowed for a long period of time?  Think about the education market.

    What sucks here is iOS 5.1 was released on to a device that I have provisioned without a warning that I could no longer use it for development if I upgraded.

    Apple still ships Xcode 4.2 for Snow Leopard, for iOS development doesn't it? It's right there on the website.

    > If you want to let the world evolve without you, you'll eventually face extinction.
    >
    > I hate Xcode 4's windowing scheme like there is no tomorrow, I have voiced why often and loud. Yet I decided to use Xcode 4 even where Xcode 3 could still be made to work. I curse it everyday, but I'm still better off keeping up to date.

    Yeah, I hate it too.

    >
    > So you need to make your choice:
    >
    > - you can (for the time being) go back to 5.0. And very soon be left behind.
    > - you can embrace the future and try to make it better.

    For my current projects, there is NOTHING in iOS 5.1 that I need to use that isn't in 5.0.1

    - Alex Zavatone
  • From the Dev Forum Link

    "I for one can't upgrade to Lion as I have stuff in my environment which apparently breaks under Lion.  So rather than restore my devices to 5.0.1 and all the hassle that involves, I put my hacking hat on and came up with the following solution.

    It presumes your current XCode 4.2 installation is in /Developer, and make sure XCode is NOT running.

    Download the Lion 4.3.1 XCode DMG file, and mount it so that you can see it from Finder.

    Fire up a Terminal (Applications->Utilities->Terminal) - don't worry UNIX-virgins, it's all straightforward :)

    Now enter the following commands into the terminal (note, your password will have to be entered after the first command):

    sudo cp -R /Volumes/Xcode/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneOS5.1.sdk /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/Developer/SDKs/
    sudo cp -R /Volumes/Xcode/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator5.1.sdk /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/
    sudo cp -R /Volumes/Xcode/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/DeviceSupport/5.1\ \(9B176\) /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/DeviceSupport/
    cd /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/DeviceSupport/
    sudo rm -f ./Latest
    sudo ln -s ./5.1\ \(9B176\) ./Latest


    Now just unmount the dmg in Finder, fire back up XCode, and your 5.1 device will now work with XCode 4.2...

    Hope that helps people!"

    Update on the middle of development cycle without measuring the consequences is a bad idea. And even when updating, do it on a controlled environment where you can switch back if this go wrong. I updated to Lion and iOS 5.1 last week, and Lion came out months ago.
    On Mar 12, 2012, at 12:51 PM, Alex Zavatone wrote:

    >
    > On Mar 12, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Jean-Denis MUYS wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> On 12 mars 2012, at 16:37, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >>
    >>> No, really.  Lion is such an annoyance, it's not the enjoyable Mac OS that we've liked for so long.
    >>> [rant removed]
    >>
    >> Let me beg to differ. When I am forced to go back to Snow Leopard, I feel cramped. When I return to Lion, I feel a breath of fresh air.
    >>
    >> But all this doesn't matter. You have your opinion, I have mine. Neither one is worth Apple supporting an obsolete operating system to develop for its current OS offering.
    >>
    >> If you were a Mac OS developer, would you demand to be able to develop for the latest Mac OS using an obsolete one?
    >> If you didn't like Snow Leopard, would you demand to be able to develop with Leopard (Tiger, Panther, Puma, Cheetah, Rhapsody, Mac OS 9, 8, 7…)?
    >> If you didn't like the Macintosh, would you demand to be able to develop with….
    >
    > Well, wasn't this allowed for a long period of time?  Think about the education market.
    >
    > What sucks here is iOS 5.1 was released on to a device that I have provisioned without a warning that I could no longer use it for development if I upgraded.
    >
    > Apple still ships Xcode 4.2 for Snow Leopard, for iOS development doesn't it? It's right there on the website.
    >
    >> If you want to let the world evolve without you, you'll eventually face extinction.
    >>
    >> I hate Xcode 4's windowing scheme like there is no tomorrow, I have voiced why often and loud. Yet I decided to use Xcode 4 even where Xcode 3 could still be made to work. I curse it everyday, but I'm still better off keeping up to date.
    >
    > Yeah, I hate it too.
    >
    >>
    >> So you need to make your choice:
    >>
    >> - you can (for the time being) go back to 5.0. And very soon be left behind.
    >> - you can embrace the future and try to make it better.
    >
    > For my current projects, there is NOTHING in iOS 5.1 that I need to use that isn't in 5.0.1
    >
    > - Alex Zavatone
    >
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
    > Xcode-users mailing list      (<Xcode-users...>)
    > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
    > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/xcode-users/j.c.fernandez.fernandez
    %40gmail.com

    >
    > This email sent to <j.c.fernandez.fernandez...>
  • On Mar 12, 2012, at 12:50 PM, Andy Lee wrote:

    > On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:37 AM, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >> Safari's downloads window has moved, it's now a useless popup that you can't trigger with a command key.
    >
    > Actually the same old command key works -- Command-Option-L.

    Well, for a long time it didn't.

    And it would not work if you had no downloads in the downloads window.

    After you press Command Option-L, can you select the downloads with the up and down arrows?

    Along these lines, are there ways to disable the idiotic auto quitting of applications that's not really auto quitting, just hiding of the GUI?  I have 12 GB of of RAM on one box and 16 on another and want to have applications like TextEdit open with no documents visible so I can navigate to the open app and open some docs.

    From my testing, if I had 8 GB of RAM free, closed a TextEdit doc and then clicked in the Finder, the TextEdit app would quit.  Of course, it was still running, but there was no GUI that I could nav to to open a doc.  It's functionality changes and issues like this that are completely counterproductive.

    As it is now, I have a 400 dollar paperweight simply because I updated the OS on my iOS device to 5.1.  There was no warning whatsoever that if I upgraded the device, I would no longer be able to use it with the dev kit I had using it with.
  • On Mar 12, 2012, at 12:20 PM, Roni Music wrote:

    >>
    >> iOS 5.1 development requires Xcode 4.3, which requires Mac OS X 10.7.3.
    >
    > I still use Xcode 3.2.6 and iOS SDK 4.3 ;-)
    >
    > So far I have been able to test with my iPad 2 running iOS 5.0.1
    > (and some other iOS devices with various older versions of iOS)
    >
    > If I upgrade a device to iOS  5.1, can I still use Xcode 3.2.6 and iOS SDK 4.3?
    >
    > I ask because when I first upgraded my iPad 2  to iOS 5, then 5.0.1
    > there was first a always a problem for Xcode to build and run on the device,
    > then eventually it worked, I never quite understood what made it work?
    >
    > Rolf

    Rolf, you are mentioning the terrible surprise that just happened to me.  After the update, my device displayed the yellow light in the Organizer (though no reason WHY the light is yellow) and I can no longer build to it from either of the Macs I have here.

    I'm trying to find out how to get it back to 4.3 or 5.0 but right now, it's stuck in recovery mode.

    Right now, my Touch is a 400 dollar paperweight and is unable to be updated, stuck in recovery mode.

    Thanks Apple.  Thanks a lot.
  • On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Alex Zavatone wrote:

    > I'm trying to find out how to get it back to 4.3 or 5.0 but right now, it's stuck in recovery mode.
    >
    > Right now, my Touch is a 400 dollar paperweight and is unable to be updated, stuck in recovery mode.

    I was stuck in this same sort of hell, back at the iOS 5.0 boundary. A coworker updated the iPhone I was developing with to iOS 5.0, and as a result I could no longer use it for development ("This version of iOS does not match any of the versions of iOS supported for development with this installation of the iOS SDK.") No way was I going to switch mid-project to Xcode 4 (in desperation I did try it out but quickly deleted it off the machine after I saw what I was up against). After checking into the issue extensively, it turned out that I couldn't roll back the iPhone to 4.3 because the 5.0 update permanently placed an iOS 5 baseband on the device, which would leave it in an untenable state if I rolled back to iOS 4.3 (which wouldn't undo the baseband update).

    So, yeah, welcome to the New Apple™. Better than the Old Apple™.
  • On 2012-03-12, at 1:55 PM, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    > From my testing, if I had 8 GB of RAM free, closed a TextEdit doc and then clicked in the Finder, the TextEdit app would quit.  Of course, it was still running, but there was no GUI that I could nav to to open a doc.  It's functionality changes and issues like this that are completely counterproductive.

    Your statement indicates a lack of understanding that is awesome and speaks volumes as to why you have difficulties. TextEdit did not Quit. It was made pendant at the time that you clicked in the finder.
  • On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:34:15 -0400, Juan Fernandez <j.c.fernandez.fernandez...> said:
    > sudo cp -R /Volumes/Xcode/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneOS5.1.sdk /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/Developer/SDKs/
    > sudo cp -R /Volumes/Xcode/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator5.1.sdk /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/
    > sudo cp -R /Volumes/Xcode/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/DeviceSupport/5.1\ \(9B176\) /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/DeviceSupport/
    > cd /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/DeviceSupport/
    > sudo rm -f ./Latest
    > sudo ln -s ./5.1\ \(9B176\) ./Latest

    Except for the ln -s, I don't see why the Terminal is needed for any of that. Or the dmg, for that matter. You're just saying "copy the sdks from Xcode 4.3.1 into the corresponding location in the Xcode 4.2 developer folder". That's great if it works, but of course that's unsupported behavior...

    I for one do not mind iOS 5.1 development not being supported in Xcode 4.2; it's a pity, but hey, I was pleasantly surprised when it turned out that Xcode 4.2 and iOS 5 development would be available for Snow Leopard at all.

    I am sorry to be faced with the Hobson's choice of either not upgrading a device to 5.1 or not being able to develop on that device from Snow Leopard, but I'm not *angry* or *surprised* to be faced with that choice. Let's be reasonable. m.

    --
    matt neuburg, phd = <matt...>, <http://www.apeth.net/matt/>
    A fool + a tool + an autorelease pool = cool!
    Programming iOS 5! http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920023562.do
  • On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:55:30 -0400, Alex Zavatone <zav...> said:

    > Along these lines, are there ways to disable the idiotic auto quitting of applications that's not really auto quitting, just hiding of the GUI?

    Okay, I am not the list mom, but this goes too far. This is old news (I wrote about it months ago in http://tidbits.com/article/12398) and irrelevant to this list. Let's all exercise a little self-control. m.

    --
    matt neuburg, phd = <matt...>, <http://www.apeth.net/matt/>
    A fool + a tool + an autorelease pool = cool!
    Programming iOS 5! http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920023562.do
  • ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Alex Zavatone" <zav...>
    To: "Roni Music" <roni5...>
    Cc: <xcode-users...>; <joar...>
    Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 7:30 PM
    Subject: Re: iOS 5.1 SDK for Xcode 4.2 for Snow Leopard?

    >
    > On Mar 12, 2012, at 12:20 PM, Roni Music wrote:
    >
    >>>
    >>> iOS 5.1 development requires Xcode 4.3, which requires Mac OS X 10.7.3.
    >>
    >> I still use Xcode 3.2.6 and iOS SDK 4.3 ;-)
    >>
    >> So far I have been able to test with my iPad 2 running iOS 5.0.1
    >> (and some other iOS devices with various older versions of iOS)
    >>
    >> If I upgrade a device to iOS  5.1, can I still use Xcode 3.2.6 and iOS
    >> SDK 4.3?
    >>
    >> I ask because when I first upgraded my iPad 2  to iOS 5, then 5.0.1
    >> there was first a always a problem for Xcode to build and run on the
    >> device,
    >> then eventually it worked, I never quite understood what made it work?
    >>
    >> Rolf
    >
    > Rolf, you are mentioning the terrible surprise that just happened to me.
    > After the update, my device displayed the yellow light in the Organizer
    > (though no reason WHY the light is yellow) and I can no longer build to it
    > from either of the Macs I have here.
    >
    > I'm trying to find out how to get it back to 4.3 or 5.0 but right now,
    > it's stuck in recovery mode.
    >
    > Right now, my Touch is a 400 dollar paperweight and is unable to be
    > updated, stuck in recovery mode.
    >
    > Thanks Apple.  Thanks a lot.

    Alex,

    The strange thing is that I had the same problem with both iOS 5.0 and
    5.0.1,
    then suddenly it worked and has ever since.
    I have no clue what I did or if I did anything special?
    During the time it didn't work, I skipped to use the iOS 5 device and used
    some of my older devices
    running iOS 4.3.

    But I made a note about this problem and I'm reluctant to update to iOS 5.1
    at the moment.

    I don't need the iOS 5.1 SDK, just want to make sure my apps run OK on iOS
    5.1.
    Untill I can test myself I guess I will have to wait until some customer
    reports it doesn't work.

    btw, this comment isn't clear:
    >>> iOS 5.1 development requires Xcode 4.3, which requires Mac OS X 10.7.3.

    I think it means that to use the iOS SDK 5.1 one need to use Xcode 4.3,
    it doesn't necessarely mean that a device running iOS 5.1 can't be used for
    testing
    with a Snow Lepoard computer running Xcode 3.2.6 using iOS SDK 4.3

    Rolf
  • Yeah, but if people are going to insist that that I move to Lion to do my dev, these are the exact reasons why it is unacceptable.

    FWIW, I haven't been able to download a copy of Xcode 4.3.1 that doesn't have a corrupt checksum, so I hope I'll be able to test out Juan's solution as soon as I can and provide feedback.

    On Mar 12, 2012, at 4:03 PM, Matt Neuburg wrote:

    > On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:55:30 -0400, Alex Zavatone <zav...> said:
    >
    >> Along these lines, are there ways to disable the idiotic auto quitting of applications that's not really auto quitting, just hiding of the GUI?
    >
    > Okay, I am not the list mom, but this goes too far. This is old news (I wrote about it months ago in http://tidbits.com/article/12398) and irrelevant to this list. Let's all exercise a little self-control. m.
    >
    > --
    > matt neuburg, phd = <matt...>, <http://www.apeth.net/matt/>
    > A fool + a tool + an autorelease pool = cool!
    > Programming iOS 5! http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920023562.do

    - Alex Zavatone
  • On Mar 12, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Matt Neuburg wrote:

    > On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:34:15 -0400, Juan Fernandez <j.c.fernandez.fernandez...> said:
    >> sudo cp -R /Volumes/Xcode/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneOS5.1.sdk /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/Developer/SDKs/
    >> sudo cp -R /Volumes/Xcode/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator5.1.sdk /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/
    >> sudo cp -R /Volumes/Xcode/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/DeviceSupport/5.1\ \(9B176\) /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/DeviceSupport/
    >> cd /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/DeviceSupport/
    >> sudo rm -f ./Latest
    >> sudo ln -s ./5.1\ \(9B176\) ./Latest
    >
    > Except for the ln -s, I don't see why the Terminal is needed for any of that. Or the dmg, for that matter. You're just saying "copy the sdks from Xcode 4.3.1 into the corresponding location in the Xcode 4.2 developer folder". That's great if it works, but of course that's unsupported behavior...
    >
    > I for one do not mind iOS 5.1 development not being supported in Xcode 4.2; it's a pity, but hey, I was pleasantly surprised when it turned out that Xcode 4.2 and iOS 5 development would be available for Snow Leopard at all.
    >
    > I am sorry to be faced with the Hobson's choice of either not upgrading a device to 5.1 or not being able to develop on that device from Snow Leopard, but I'm not *angry* or *surprised* to be faced with that choice. Let's be reasonable. m.

    I am.  There was no warning that updating the device would render it useless for development.  And there isn't an easy way to set it back to a useable device.  This costs time and money.
  • On Mar 12, 2012, at 4:17 PM, Roni Music wrote:

    > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Zavatone" <zav...>
    > To: "Roni Music" <roni5...>
    > Cc: <xcode-users...>; <joar...>
    > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 7:30 PM
    > Subject: Re: iOS 5.1 SDK for Xcode 4.2 for Snow Leopard?
    >
    >
    > btw, this comment isn't clear:
    >>>> iOS 5.1 development requires Xcode 4.3, which requires Mac OS X 10.7.3.
    >
    >
    > I think it means that to use the iOS SDK 5.1 one need to use Xcode 4.3,
    > it doesn't necessarely mean that a device running iOS 5.1 can't be used for testing
    > with a Snow Lepoard computer running Xcode 3.2.6 using iOS SDK 4.3

    I can't build to that device anymore, now that it is running iOS 5.1 form Xcode 4.2 running on Mac OS 10.6.8

    The Xcode organizer tells me that I can't use it and I can not select it as a target when doing a build.

    - Alex Zavatone
  • Just to be clear, I haven't tested this solution myself since i had to upgrade to Lion. This was a post from the Apple development forum which was linked before. Here's the link: https://devforums.apple.com/thread/144061
    On Mar 12, 2012, at 4:53 PM, Alex Zavatone wrote:

    >
    > On Mar 12, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Matt Neuburg wrote:
    >
    >> On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:34:15 -0400, Juan Fernandez <j.c.fernandez.fernandez...> said:
    >>> sudo cp -R /Volumes/Xcode/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneOS5.1.sdk /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/Developer/SDKs/
    >>> sudo cp -R /Volumes/Xcode/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator5.1.sdk /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/
    >>> sudo cp -R /Volumes/Xcode/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/DeviceSupport/5.1\ \(9B176\) /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/DeviceSupport/
    >>> cd /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/DeviceSupport/
    >>> sudo rm -f ./Latest
    >>> sudo ln -s ./5.1\ \(9B176\) ./Latest
    >>
    >> Except for the ln -s, I don't see why the Terminal is needed for any of that. Or the dmg, for that matter. You're just saying "copy the sdks from Xcode 4.3.1 into the corresponding location in the Xcode 4.2 developer folder". That's great if it works, but of course that's unsupported behavior...
    >>
    >> I for one do not mind iOS 5.1 development not being supported in Xcode 4.2; it's a pity, but hey, I was pleasantly surprised when it turned out that Xcode 4.2 and iOS 5 development would be available for Snow Leopard at all.
    >>
    >> I am sorry to be faced with the Hobson's choice of either not upgrading a device to 5.1 or not being able to develop on that device from Snow Leopard, but I'm not *angry* or *surprised* to be faced with that choice. Let's be reasonable. m.
    >
    > I am.  There was no warning that updating the device would render it useless for development.  And there isn't an easy way to set it back to a useable device.  This costs time and money.
  • On Mar 12, 2012, at 3:58 PM, Peter Teeson wrote:

    > On 2012-03-12, at 1:55 PM, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >> From my testing, if I had 8 GB of RAM free, closed a TextEdit doc and then clicked in the Finder, the TextEdit app would quit.  Of course, it was still running, but there was no GUI that I could nav to to open a doc.  It's functionality changes and issues like this that are completely counterproductive.
    >
    > Your statement indicates a lack of understanding that is awesome and speaks volumes as to why you have difficulties. TextEdit did not Quit. It was made pendant at the time that you clicked in the finder.

    Pendant?

    Look.  Closing the last document and clicking on the Finder quits TextEdit in Lion.  Matt and Siracusa have mentioned this rather clearly.  Well, it quits the GUI, but the app is still running.

    So, the app is still running but its GUI isn't.  That's a insanely stupid approach when there is 8 GB of RAM free.

    Try option tabbing back.  The app's GUI is no longer available and doesn't appear.  If you look in the Process Monitor, the app is still running, but you have to relaunch it to get to the GUI.

    And that's part of my workflow.  I'll close documents, keep the app open and tab back to it and select files form the Recently Used files or from the Open menu.

    Why?

    Because Apple's let us do that for over a decade.

    Auto quitting of an app's GUI while you keep the app running in memory when there is 8 GB of RAM free is insanely stupid.  It is thinking different, that's for sure.

    Really Peter, it appears that you haven't been using a Mac for a long time and that speaks volumes as well.  I've been using these things since 1985.

    The HUI docs even say this.  It appears that you missed that as well.

    Apps should support automatic termination so that the user never has to quit them. Automatic termination means that when the user closes an app’s windows, the app appears to quit but actually just moves to the background quietly.

    Yeah, well, its GUI is disabled and you can't command tab back to the app unless this has changed since 10.7.2.

    Apple's HUI docs say that "sudden and unexpected quitting of applications enhance the user experience".  I don't know what planet the new team is from (microsoft), but for those of us who have spent the past 25 years using a Mac, this is just about the stupidest thing ever.

    https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/General/Conceptual/MO
    SXAppProgrammingGuide/MOSXAppProgrammingGuide.pdf


    - Alex Zavatone
  • On Mar 12, 2012, at 3:51 PM, Alex Zavatone wrote:

    > Pendant?
    >
    > Look.  Closing the last document and clicking on the Finder quits TextEdit in Lion.  Matt and Siracusa have mentioned this rather clearly.  Well, it quits the GUI, but the app is still running.
    >
    > So, the app is still running but its GUI isn't.  That's a insanely stupid approach when there is 8 GB of RAM free.

    But on every desktop operating system except for Mac OS X, closing the last window quits the application, except for apps that live in the status bar or otherwise need to run in the background. And every mobile smart device operating system except for Maemo doesn't even require users to quit apps; putting them in the background makes them stay resident until the OS needs the resources elsewhere, or until they've been idle for long enough.

    So until Lion, Mac OS X was the exception among all operating systems people actually used, in that it required users to manually manage their desktop apps. That's not a big deal for veterans that are used to this, but for newbies, I can see how it can become confusing, especially after they launch too many things and their computer suddenly becomes slow due to all the swapping going on. So I don't mind the change at all.

    Nick Zitzmann
    <http://www.chronosnet.com/>
  • On Mar 12, 2012, at 4:12 PM, Nick Zitzmann wrote:
    >
    > But on every desktop operating system except for Mac OS X, closing the last window quits the application, except for apps that live in the status bar or otherwise need to run in the background. And every mobile smart device operating system except for Maemo doesn't even require users to quit apps; putting them in the background makes them stay resident until the OS needs the resources elsewhere, or until they've been idle for long enough.
    >
    > So until Lion, Mac OS X was the exception among all operating systems people actually used, in that it required users to manually manage their desktop apps. That's not a big deal for veterans that are used to this, but for newbies, I can see how it can become confusing, especially after they launch too many things and their computer suddenly becomes slow due to all the swapping going on. So I don't mind the change at all.

    You're saying that Apple is now Windows-conformant. So whatever happened to Think Different™?
  • On Mar 12, 2012, at 5:32 PM, Nathan Sims wrote:

    > On Mar 12, 2012, at 4:12 PM, Nick Zitzmann wrote:
    >>
    >> So until Lion, Mac OS X was the exception among all operating systems people actually used, in that it required users to manually manage their desktop apps. That's not a big deal for veterans that are used to this, but for newbies, I can see how it can become confusing, especially after they launch too many things and their computer suddenly becomes slow due to all the swapping going on. So I don't mind the change at all.
    >
    > You're saying that Apple is now Windows-conformant. So whatever happened to Think Different™?

    That shouldn't be too surprising, since there are several features of Mac OS X that originated on Windows, such as sticky menus, contextual menus, the status bar, ODBC, full screen windows, fast user switching, etc. No one has a monopoly on good ideas.

    And now we are getting way off-topic...

    Nick Zitzmann
    <http://www.chronosnet.com/>
  • On Mar 12, 2012, at 7:12 PM, Nick Zitzmann wrote:

    >
    > On Mar 12, 2012, at 3:51 PM, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    >
    >> Pendant?
    >>
    >> Look.  Closing the last document and clicking on the Finder quits TextEdit in Lion.  Matt and Siracusa have mentioned this rather clearly.  Well, it quits the GUI, but the app is still running.
    >>
    >> So, the app is still running but its GUI isn't.  That's a insanely stupid approach when there is 8 GB of RAM free.
    >
    > But on every desktop operating system except for Mac OS X, closing the last window quits the application, except for apps that live in the status bar or otherwise need to run in the background. And every mobile smart device operating system except for Maemo doesn't even require users to quit apps; putting them in the background makes them stay resident until the OS needs the resources elsewhere, or until they've been idle for long enough.

    Yeah, and Mac users were used to apps running this way.

    > So until Lion, Mac OS X was the exception among all operating systems people actually used, in that it required users to manually manage their desktop apps. That's not a big deal for veterans that are used to this, but for newbies, I can see how it can become confusing, especially after they launch too many things and their computer suddenly becomes slow due to all the swapping going on. So I don't mind the change at all.

    So, give us a switch to enable it or disable it in System Preferences.  Don't wholesale push in changes that force users to abandon 10+ years of how they worked.

    I don't want the OS trying to outthink me.  I'm all grown up and can find the command Q keys.  I want to be able to have an app open with no documents.  Look, in Lion, the app's GUI stays open - until you click away.  That's not the same as closing the last window quits the app.

    > Nick Zitzmann
    > <http://www.chronosnet.com/>

    - Alex Zavatone
  • On 2012-03-12, at 5:51 PM, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    > Pendant?
    Usually used of a pice of jewellery that hangs from around the neck.
    In operating systems terms it means the app is still launched (i.e. the process is not terminated but "hibernated")
    awaiting possible re-activation by some mechanism.
    <snip>
    > So, the app is still running but its GUI isn't.  That's a insanely stupid approach when there is 8 GB of RAM free.
    I agree this is highly suspect. How do you think it should work? Still appear in the dock? The source is available so you can fix it if you wish.
    > Try option tabbing back.  The app's GUI is no longer available and doesn't appear.
    It's there in Launch Pad - same process number as shown by Activity Monitor (which I think you mean by the term Process Monitor). As programmers we should be precise don't you think?
    > Really Peter, it appears that you haven't been using a Mac for a long time and that speaks volumes as well.  I've been using these things since 1985.

    Since 1984 and before there were loose leaf documentation binders and well before Inside Mac.

    Anyway I'll drop out of this conversation and leave you to your self inflicted wounds.

    respect...
  • On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Alex Zavatone wrote:
    > I've wasted way too much time with Lion trying to get it to a usable/non annoying state.
    > I really hope this garbage is turned off in Mountain Lion

    Well, if they don’t, the joke is already set - “The lion jumped off the mountain..”

    I haven’t upgraded to Lion yet, and I think I’ll wait until at least Mountain Lion.  The impression I get from the discussions is that Lion is sort of like OS X 1.0 - nice, pretty, new, and totally unusable until at least the first revision.  Was OSX usable at the first dot release or did it take two or three?  I remember 1.0 was really really slow.

    Jim
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