Hacker's Fate

  • By now I am sure you have all seen this article by Scott Hacker.

    http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/2558

    Both Scott and his father have had difficulties with iPhoto and
    iTunes scaling up to the use they want.

    iTunes at any rate is a container for the NSTableView, what I can
    determine, and Scott's experience only confirms my previous
    misgivings in this matter.

    I further suggest to our friend in Maryland that Scott and his
    father must have somehow rigged their tests; and to our friend in
    Switzerland, that it might be a good idea to accuse Scott and his
    father of being sloppy programmers.
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  • On Friday, Jan 17, 2003, at 09:14 US/Pacific, Rixster @ Rixstep wrote:
    >
    > iTunes at any rate is a container for the NSTableView, what I can
    > determine, and Scott's experience only confirms my previous
    > misgivings in this matter.

    iTunes is not Cocoa but still Carbon so it does not contain a
    NSTableView.

    Thanks,
    Andrew Pinski
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  • On 17/1/03 5:14 pm, Rixster @ Rixstep <rixstep000...> wrote:
    > By now I am sure you have all seen this article by Scott Hacker.
    >
    > http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/2558
    >
    > Both Scott and his father have had difficulties with iPhoto and
    > iTunes scaling up to the use they want.
    >
    > iTunes at any rate is a container for the NSTableView, what I can
    > determine, and Scott's experience only confirms my previous
    > misgivings in this matter.

    Nice troll.

    iTunes is a Carbon app.

    iPhoto is a Cocoa app on the other hand, but you have not proven that its
    sluggishness is due to NSTableView.

    Cheers,

    Chris
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  • This is going to be a concern for me too, and I confess I did not follow
    the previous thread closely enough.

    Simply put, has anyone got a working app that displays, say, 1,000,000
    rows through a table view with reasonable performance? I want to
    implement an application that can do that.

    By the way, at least one application in my area of interest (the
    Molecular Operating Environment) seems able to do this in X-windows, so
    it clearly is possible. I was shocked at how rapidly MOE could scroll
    through an enormous table with 100,000's of compounds - and display a
    little chemical structure at the front of each row for good measure!

    Have a good weekend,

    Randy

    On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 12:14 PM, Rixster @ Rixstep wrote:

    > By now I am sure you have all seen this article by Scott Hacker.
    >
    > http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/2558
    >
    > Both Scott and his father have had difficulties with iPhoto and
    > iTunes scaling up to the use they want.
    >
    > iTunes at any rate is a container for the NSTableView, what I can
    > determine, and Scott's experience only confirms my previous
    > misgivings in this matter.
    >
    > I further suggest to our friend in Maryland that Scott and his
    > father must have somehow rigged their tests; and to our friend in
    > Switzerland, that it might be a good idea to accuse Scott and his
    > father of being sloppy programmers.
    > Everything you'll ever need on one web page
    > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
    > http://uk.my.yahoo.com
    > _______________________________________________
    > cocoa-dev mailing list | <cocoa-dev...>
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    > http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/cocoa-dev
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    >
    >

    Randy J. Zauhar, PhD
    Assoc. Prof. of Biochemistry
    Director, Graduate Program in Bioinformatics
    Dept. of Chemistry & Biochemistry
    University of the Sciences in Philadelphia
    600 S. 43rd Street
    Philadelphia, PA 19104

    Phone:    (215)596-8691
    FAX:        (215)596-8543
    E-mail:    <r.zauhar...>
    Web:    http://tonga.usip.edu/zauhar

    Discussion after watching Disney's "Lilo & Stitch":

    DAD: "But why did the space aliens speak English, as opposed to French,
    or Swahili? And why did the one alien speak English with an Eastern
    European accent? I don't get it."

    CATHERINE (age 7): "That's 'cause you don't have a good cartoon brain."
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  • On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 12:02  PM, zauhar wrote:

    > This is going to be a concern for me too, and I confess I did not
    > follow the previous thread closely enough.
    >
    > Simply put, has anyone got a working app that displays, say, 1,000,000
    > rows through a table view with reasonable performance? I want to
    > implement an application that can do that.
    >
    > By the way, at least one application in my area of interest (the
    > Molecular Operating Environment) seems able to do this in X-windows,
    > so it clearly is possible. I was shocked at how rapidly MOE could
    > scroll through an enormous table with 100,000's of compounds - and
    > display a little chemical structure at the front of each row for good
    > measure!

    1) It was a troll. Search the list archives for a recent thread about
    this very issue, started by rixstep.

    2) NSTableView is quite scalable. The long and short of it is that the
    ONLY bottleneck is how you implement your NSTableDataSource object.
    Here is an example I posted, with extremely alpha quality code mind
    you, that shows how to use NSTableView with millions of rows.

    http://www.mindlube.com/download/files/Tabularity%200.1.dmg

    Now some will say this proves nothing, because it's not a stable app or
    it's not finished, or it's sloppily coded or whatever. But that's
    totally evading the point. The point is very simple. Be smart in
    implementing your NSTableDataSource.

      Alex Rice <alex...> | Mindlube Software  |
    http://mindlube.com

      what a waste of thumbs that are opposable
      to make machines that are disposable  -Ani DiFranco
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  • > Both Scott and his father have had difficulties with iPhoto and
    > iTunes scaling up to the use they want.
    >

    I would suggest the two scaling problems are not to do with anything
    inherently ObjC.

    Taking iTunes first, the entire library seems to be stored in a
    flat-file. I would suggest it is not much better when held in memory.
    The problem is how the data is stored - quite correctly, Scott pointed
    out that databases can do this no problem but iTunes is NOT a database
    and has chosen the wrong file format for its library!

    iPhoto is more likely getting bogged down with it's images. 800 images
    is rather a lot to throw around (I remember earlier versions of OS X
    that could not really cope with more than about 100 different icons
    before it stopped drawing some of them). Scott doesn't mention whether
    his problems only occur when showing ALL his images or whether he still
    has problems when dealing only with reels at a time. Come to mention
    it, I bet he's trying to use the big long list to navigate his iTunes
    music as well, instead of using the browse button and selecting by
    genre or something.

    Still, in both cases, it's unlikely to be the ui that is at fault...

    Robert

    ---
    GnuPG public key:
    http://www.Far-Blue.co.uk/RSGoldsmith.asc

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  • On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 12:02  PM, zauhar wrote:

    >> Simply put, has anyone got a working app that displays, say, 1,000,000
    >> rows through a table view with reasonable performance? I want to
    >> implement an application that can do that.

    Yes, I have: using SQLite (http://www.hwaci.com/sw/sqlite) and Cocoa.

    Performance? It's pretty darn fast even with 1,000,000 records.

    > 2) NSTableView is quite scalable. The long and short of it is that the
    > ONLY bottleneck is how you implement your NSTableDataSource object.
    > Here is an example I posted, with extremely alpha quality code mind
    > you, that shows how to use NSTableView with millions of rows.
    >
    > http://www.mindlube.com/download/files/Tabularity%200.1.dmg
    >
    > Now some will say this proves nothing, because it's not a stable app or
    > it's not finished, or it's sloppily coded or whatever. But that's
    > totally evading the point. The point is very simple. Be smart in
    > implementing your NSTableDataSource.

    Since Tabularity requires BDB, I created an app with the SQLite engine
    included, so there's no need to download and install anything else.

    If you want to try it, you can download it here:
    http://homepage.mac.com/tciuro

    It uses the NSTableView we all love, nothing more, nothing less. If you
    decide to try with 1,000,000 records, I *strongly* suggest that you
    don't index the table, because it'll take way too much. You've been
    warned!

    The NSTableView data source is the database itself, and the data is not
    loaded in an array. Since SQLite is pretty fast getting the data, it
    fetches it directly. With 1,000,000 records, you'll sure hear the disk
    drive when you scroll though! :)

    > The point is very simple. Be smart in implementing your
    > NSTableDataSource.

    I couldn't agree more.

    Regards,

    -- Tito
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  • On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 08:11  AM, Tito Ciuro wrote:
    > Since Tabularity requires BDB, I created an app with the SQLite engine
    > included, so there's no need to download and install anything else.
    >
    > If you want to try it, you can download it here:
    > http://homepage.mac.com/tciuro

    Excellent! This is a more informative and useful app than Tabularity.

    BTW Tabularity is statically linked with BerkeleyDB, so thats only
    required if you are recompiling it.

    >
    >> The point is very simple. Be smart in implementing your
    >> NSTableDataSource.
    >
    > I couldn't agree more.
    >

      Alex Rice <alex...> | Mindlube Software  |
    http://mindlube.com

      what a waste of thumbs that are opposable
      to make machines that are disposable  -Ani DiFranco
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