Boredom Strikes Student Programmer
-
I have an internship at a company in town that only programs for
Windows, but normally I don't care because I do scripting work, and I
have classes in which I do lots of programming on my beloved PowerBook,
candy interface and all.
This semester I'm in lots of Computer Science classes with no
programming: databases (Access-- ick), Hardware, and Programming
Languages (which should count, but doesn't, because we learn how to
parse lists in Prolog, which is not programming, it's dabbling).
And at work, I've recently been drafted to write... COM. Double ick.
Today the thought struck me that recently I've been programming more for
Windows than Mac. Triple ick.
Plus, I really want to learn Cocoa and Objective-C. I've got the basics,
but I won't be able to say that I actually know them until I've done a
big project.
The only problem is, I have nothing to write. Nada. Zilch. Zippo.
The search for ideas starts. I look at download.com for the top Windows
apps, to see if there's something that we should have on the mac that
isn't there. But the top five were all file-sharing clones. We have
enough of those.
So I decided to help my community and look at sourceforge. Great idea,
but most of the stuff there is either UNIX ports, which I have no
interest in, or done, like Fire. Or yet another file-sharing clone.
So I decided to ask you guys. What's the silly little shareware program
you always wanted, but never actually found or wrote? What would make
you happy to see on VersionTracker? What would you love to have to show
off to your Windows-using friends?
Think Applications. Think amazing. Think different. :)
-The Amazing Llama <tallama at mac dot com>
"Life is like an exploded clown. It's really funny until you figure out
what just happened." -
Not little; not silly, but...
if you would like those who come after you to have more chance to learn
Cocoa, the best thing would be to make ProjectBuilder a compelling
platform for first semester programmers.
This is what is needed:
- a template project with two new build phases
1) regression test
2) submit assignment
- a directory scheme with appropriate permissions
- a script which sucks in a student list and produces and populates with
template projects (and symlinks?) a set of student folders
- a Cocoa application which checks in the student directories for
activity and submitted projects, compiles them with pbxbuild, runs the
regression test and spits out charts and graphs showing when students
start and complete projects.
Christopher Anand
Computing and Software
McMaster University
>
> So I decided to ask you guys. What's the silly little shareware program
> you always wanted, but never actually found or wrote? What would make
> you happy to see on VersionTracker? What would you love to have to show
> off to your Windows-using friends?
>
> Think Applications. Think amazing. Think different. :)
>
> -The Amazing Llama <tallama at mac dot com>
> "Life is like an exploded clown. It's really funny until you figure out
> what just happened."
>
> _______________________________________________
> MacOSX-dev mailing list
> <MacOSX-dev...>
> http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-dev
>
-
hi dee hi,
>
> So I decided to ask you guys. What's the silly little shareware program
> you always wanted, but never actually found or wrote? What would make
> you happy to see on VersionTracker? What would you love to have to show
> off to your Windows-using friends?
see here:
http://www.versiontracker.com/moreinfo.fcgi?id=13757&db=macosx
and read the review by Gerald Wilson. it also seems to be neither silly
nor little, but sounds like a promising project idea.
regards
sebastian mecklenburg
--
sebastian mecklenburg | Early to rise, early to bed,
<sebi...> | makes a man healthy, wealthy and dead.
http://sebi.cyte.de | (Terry Pratchett, paraphrasing James Thurber) -
On 3/1/02 2:16 AM, "The Amazing Llama" <tallama...> wrote:
> And at work, I've recently been drafted to write... COM. Double ick.
> Today the thought struck me that recently I've been programming more for
> Windows than Mac. Triple ick.
>
I feel your pain. I've had to write ActiveX controls using ATL. It's not
something I enjoyed doing.
>
> So I decided to ask you guys. What's the silly little shareware program
> you always wanted, but never actually found or wrote? What would make
> you happy to see on VersionTracker? What would you love to have to show
> off to your Windows-using friends?
>
The topic just came up on the X-Unix list. How about a print server?
Remember USB printer sharing in classic? I really want to be able to print
to my Canon S600, which is connected to my G4, remotely from my iBook.
--
[ Mike Cohen | http://www.macmegasite.com/ ]
[ <mc3999...> | http://www.worldbeatplanet.com/ ]
Sound is the same for all the world - Youssou N'dour, "Eyes Open" -
>
> So I decided to ask you guys. What's the silly little shareware program
> you always wanted, but never actually found or wrote? What would make
> you happy to see on VersionTracker? What would you love to have to show
> off to your Windows-using friends?
>
> Think Applications. Think amazing. Think different. :)
One utility that is really needed on OS X is the one which will allow to
display the "The Quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" window when
you double-click on a Font in the Finder.
Currently, it's displaying "There is no application to open the document
"Arial". There should be a little label under this, stating: "Do you
want to keep on using Windows ?"
All the solution I currently looked at are not able to do this and can
only display the fonts in the various Fonts folder. As soon as a font is
not in a Fonts folder, you can't have a look at it. -
On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 04:32 PM, Stéphane Sudre wrote:
[utility for displaying fonts]
> All the solution I currently looked at are not able to do this and can
> only display the fonts in the various Fonts folder. As soon as a font
> is not in a Fonts folder, you can't have a look at it.
I think there's a reason for this...Apple has a couple of bug reports
from me on the topic of font APIs not working...
Of course, I guess you could hook in a custom font-renderer for this
particular app.
Marcel
--
Marcel Weiher Metaobject Software Technologies
<marcel...> www.metaobject.com
Metaprogramming for the Graphic Arts. HOM, IDEAs, MetaAd etc. -
On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 04:17 PM, Mike Cohen wrote:
>
> The topic just came up on the X-Unix list. How about a print server?
> Remember USB printer sharing in classic? I really want to be able to
> print
> to my Canon S600, which is connected to my G4, remotely from my iBook.
The problem here is that the print system is still somewhat broken, both
in some parts of the architecture and implementation-wise.
In essence, you can't really get the print-system to spit out a PDF to
do with what you would like. Sad.
Marcel
--
Marcel Weiher Metaobject Software Technologies
<marcel...> www.metaobject.com
Metaprogramming for the Graphic Arts. HOM, IDEAs, MetaAd etc. -
On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 06:18 , Marcel Weiher wrote:
> On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 04:17 PM, Mike Cohen wrote:
>
>>
>> The topic just came up on the X-Unix list. How about a print server?
>> Remember USB printer sharing in classic? I really want to be able to
>> print
>> to my Canon S600, which is connected to my G4, remotely from my iBook.
>
> The problem here is that the print system is still somewhat broken,
> both in some parts of the architecture and implementation-wise.
>
> In essence, you can't really get the print-system to spit out a PDF to
> do with what you would like. Sad.
What about configuring an lpr-server on Mac OS X (note that lpd isn't
installed by default, but I think you could add it somehow) and piping
the PS-file to /usr/sbin/Print?
(you'd have to save the file temporarily into /tmp to pass it to Print).
That should be possible by using a simple shell script, no need for PDF.
andy -
I was trying to setup sendmail the other day, and majoromo to host a
mailing list. This was all command line, and a bit of a nightmare. It
seems to me that this is something lots of people will want, to
accompany the apache web server that is already built into mac os x.
How about making an easy-to-use, aqua-beautiful front-end for sendmail,
which is already included in mac os x, but not activated? And when you
have done that, how about a majoromo or equivalent?
(If you want a good example of a front-end for an ugly unix tool, check
out Brickhouse. It is a front end for ipfw, and is great.)
Drew McCormack
On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 08:16 AM, The Amazing Llama wrote:
> I have an internship at a company in town that only programs for
> Windows, but normally I don't care because I do scripting work, and I
> have classes in which I do lots of programming on my beloved PowerBook,
> candy interface and all.
>
> This semester I'm in lots of Computer Science classes with no
> programming: databases (Access-- ick), Hardware, and Programming
> Languages (which should count, but doesn't, because we learn how to
> parse lists in Prolog, which is not programming, it's dabbling).
>
> And at work, I've recently been drafted to write... COM. Double ick.
> Today the thought struck me that recently I've been programming more
> for Windows than Mac. Triple ick.
>
> Plus, I really want to learn Cocoa and Objective-C. I've got the
> basics, but I won't be able to say that I actually know them until I've
> done a big project.
>
> The only problem is, I have nothing to write. Nada. Zilch. Zippo.
>
> The search for ideas starts. I look at download.com for the top Windows
> apps, to see if there's something that we should have on the mac that
> isn't there. But the top five were all file-sharing clones. We have
> enough of those.
>
> So I decided to help my community and look at sourceforge. Great idea,
> but most of the stuff there is either UNIX ports, which I have no
> interest in, or done, like Fire. Or yet another file-sharing clone.
>
> So I decided to ask you guys. What's the silly little shareware program
> you always wanted, but never actually found or wrote? What would make
> you happy to see on VersionTracker? What would you love to have to show
> off to your Windows-using friends?
>
> Think Applications. Think amazing. Think different. :)
>
> -The Amazing Llama <tallama at mac dot com>
> "Life is like an exploded clown. It's really funny until you figure out
> what just happened."
>
> _______________________________________________
> MacOSX-dev mailing list
> <MacOSX-dev...>
> http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-dev
>
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
Dr. Drew McCormack
Trade Strategist (www.trade-strategist.com)
Trading simulation software for Mac OS X -
On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 04:32:04PM +0100, Stéphane Sudre wrote:
> One utility that is really needed on OS X is the one which will allow to
> display the "The Quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" window when
> you double-click on a Font in the Finder.
Try "X Font Info", I think it does what you want.
http://homepage.mac.com/vjalby/xfontinfo/
Slightly related, has anyone else been completely unable to use Type 1
fonts in OS X? They've just stopped working for me and I have no idea
how to fix it. I've installed fresh copies of the fonts so I know
it's not corruption (and it seems rather impossible that ALL of my
fonts could be corrupted). They work fine in Classic.
--
=Nicholas Riley <njriley...> | <http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/njriley>
Pablo Research Group, Department of Computer Science and
Medical Scholars Program, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign -
> So I decided to ask you guys. What's the silly little shareware program
> you always wanted, but never actually found or wrote? What would make you
> happy to see on VersionTracker? What would you love to have to show off to
> your Windows-using friends?
I've been thinking of this myself and if I ever had some time (or if my job
turned windows-ish like yours) I would want to write virtual screens that
allowed each screen to have a the user log in as a different user. This
way I wouldn't have to log out so that my wife could have access to her
files. Or if I locked my screen saver when I went for lunch or home for the
night someone else could log into the box as themselves.
_______
Terrence -
On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 06:31 PM, Andreas Monitzer wrote:
> On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 06:18 , Marcel Weiher wrote:
>
>> On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 04:17 PM, Mike Cohen wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The topic just came up on the X-Unix list. How about a print server?
>>> Remember USB printer sharing in classic? I really want to be able to
>>> print
>>> to my Canon S600, which is connected to my G4, remotely from my iBook.
>>
>> The problem here is that the print system is still somewhat broken,
>> both in some parts of the architecture and implementation-wise.
>>
>> In essence, you can't really get the print-system to spit out a PDF to
>> do with what you would like. Sad.
>
> What about configuring an lpr-server on Mac OS X (note that lpd isn't
> installed by default, but I think you could add it somehow) and piping
> the PS-file to /usr/sbin/Print?
That's fine, except that the print-system can't handle Postscript as
input. OTOH, it forces PS generation when going to lpr/printcap based
printers, despite that lpd is a multi-format protocol.
> (you'd have to save the file temporarily into /tmp to pass it to Print).
> That should be possible by using a simple shell script, no need for PDF.
And what are you going to do with the PS file? Especially if you talk
about USB printer sharing (which usually means non PS printers...)
Marcel
--
Marcel Weiher Metaobject Software Technologies
<marcel...> www.metaobject.com
Metaprogramming for the Graphic Arts. HOM, IDEAs, MetaAd etc. -
On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 08:46 , Marcel Weiher wrote:
> the print-system can't handle Postscript as input. OTOH, it forces PS
> generation when going to lpr/printcap based printers, despite that lpd
> is a multi-format protocol.
>
>> (you'd have to save the file temporarily into /tmp to pass it to
>> Print).
>> That should be possible by using a simple shell script, no need for
>> PDF.
>
> And what are you going to do with the PS file? Especially if you talk
> about USB printer sharing (which usually means non PS printers...)
Print man page:
Print places a job in the queue to be printed by the
printing system. If no printer is specified, the cur-
rently selected default printer is used. If no mimetype
is specified, the file extension determines the job for-
mat. If file format is inconclusive, Print looks for
%!PS or %PDF in the job to determine if the format is
postscript or pdf. If the file format is still inconclu-
sive, then text is assumed and the user is prompted with a
warning message indicating that the job will be converted
to postscript using the enscript(1) command line tool.
I don't have a non-PS printer to test it, though.
andy -
On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 07:37 PM, Terrence Geernaert wrote:
> I would want to write virtual screens that allowed each screen to have
> a the user log in as a different user. This way I wouldn't have to
> log out so that my wife could have access to her files.
Not easy to do if you don't work at Apple on the CoreGraphics project :-)
-- Finlay -
On Fri, 1 Mar 2002, Finlay Dobbie wrote:
>
> On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 07:37 PM, Terrence Geernaert wrote:
>
>> I would want to write virtual screens that allowed each screen to have
>> a the user log in as a different user. This way I wouldn't have to
>> log out so that my wife could have access to her files.
>
> Not easy to do if you don't work at Apple on the CoreGraphics project :-)
I don't know... when I run
sudo /System/Library/CoreServices/Finder.app/Contents/MacOS/Finder
I get a Finder running with root permissions, even though I'm logged
in. When I kill the root Finder, I get my own Finder back.
It is a hack, but somebody could wrap a nice interface around it and
make people happy... perhaps there is even a way to control which of
the Finders is currently active.
--
this is a .sig about a superhero named jonny, it's called jonny's .sig! -
On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 09:13 PM, jk wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Mar 2002, Finlay Dobbie wrote:
>
>> On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 07:37 PM, Terrence Geernaert wrote:
>>
>>> I would want to write virtual screens that allowed each screen to have
>>> a the user log in as a different user. This way I wouldn't have to
>>> log out so that my wife could have access to her files.
>>
>> Not easy to do if you don't work at Apple on the CoreGraphics
>> project :-)
>
> I don't know... when I run
> sudo /System/Library/CoreServices/Finder.app/Contents/MacOS/Finder
> I get a Finder running with root permissions, even though I'm logged
> in. When I kill the root Finder, I get my own Finder back.
What's your point? You can only connect to the windowserver if you are
the user currently logged in (on /dev/console), or you are root. Anyway,
I don't even see how this helps you, care to elaborate?
> It is a hack, but somebody could wrap a nice interface around it and
> make people happy... perhaps there is even a way to control which of
> the Finders is currently active.
Why do you want to run the Finder as root anyway?
-- Finlay -
On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 08:52 PM, Andreas Monitzer wrote:
> On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 08:46 , Marcel Weiher wrote:
>
>> the print-system can't handle Postscript as input. OTOH, it forces PS
>> generation when going to lpr/printcap based printers, despite that lpd
>> is a multi-format protocol.
>>
>>> (you'd have to save the file temporarily into /tmp to pass it to
>>> Print).
>>> That should be possible by using a simple shell script, no need for
>>> PDF.
>>
>> And what are you going to do with the PS file? Especially if you talk
>> about USB printer sharing (which usually means non PS printers...)
>
> Print man page:
[deleted]
So? Again, what are you going to do with the PS file?
There are no facilities built into Mac OS X for interpreting
Postscript. The only thing you can do with a Postscript file is route
it to a Postscript printer.
Marcel
--
Marcel Weiher Metaobject Software Technologies
<marcel...> www.metaobject.com
Metaprogramming for the Graphic Arts. HOM, IDEAs, MetaAd etc. -
How about a window with a pair of eyes in it and as you move the mouse
about the eyes follow the mouse, that would be really cool.
Or how about a mac version of the mines game, another one of them would
be really good.
On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 05:46 PM, The Amazing Llama wrote:
>
> So I decided to ask you guys. What's the silly little shareware program
> you always wanted, but never actually found or wrote? What would make
> you happy to see on VersionTracker? What would you love to have to show
> off to your Windows-using friends?
-
At 11:16 PM -0800 2/28/02, The Amazing Llama wrote:
>
> So I decided to ask you guys. What's the silly little shareware
> program you always wanted, but never actually found or wrote? What
> would make you happy to see on VersionTracker? What would you love
> to have to show off to your Windows-using friends?
I want MORE Watson tools.
I am working on a couple. He has a great API which is very
straightforward. You could get something up and running in no time.
http://www.karelia.com/watson/
If you want ideas for some email me. :)
Personally, I have more projects than I have time to work on.
-Ben
--
http://homepage.mac.com/bhines/ -
On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 06:36 PM, Nathan Day wrote:
> How about a window with a pair of eyes in it and as you move the mouse
> about the eyes follow the mouse, that would be really cool.
It could actually be moderately useful if you have a couple of big
monitors on your Mac. I'm sure it's been done by now, though.
> Or how about a mac version of the mines game, another one of them would
> be really good.
-
On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 11:53 , Marcel Weiher wrote:
> So? Again, what are you going to do with the PS file?
>
> There are no facilities built into Mac OS X for interpreting
> Postscript. The only thing you can do with a Postscript file is route
> it to a Postscript printer.
Well, don't know, I never owned a non-PS printer on a Mac. Maybe you'd
need gs to convert it to a format the printer can understand and route
its output to Print.
But the printing system might change significantly in the future:
http://www.easysw.com/news.php?VN68+CALL
andy -
on 02-03-2002 12:53, Andreas Monitzer at <andy...> wrote:
> On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 11:53 , Marcel Weiher wrote:
>
>> So? Again, what are you going to do with the PS file?
>>
>> There are no facilities built into Mac OS X for interpreting
>> Postscript. The only thing you can do with a Postscript file is route
>> it to a Postscript printer.
>
> Well, don't know, I never owned a non-PS printer on a Mac. Maybe you'd
> need gs to convert it to a format the printer can understand and route
> its output to Print.
>
> But the printing system might change significantly in the future:
>
> http://www.easysw.com/news.php?VN68+CALL
>
> andy
I would be very glad if you would built such a system, I've been trying to
do it for SMB.
There are some large pitfalls. First the command Print is broken. At least
it was ever since 10.1 so it will probably still be in 10.1.3
Lpd with PS and ghostview is quite possible.
Look with google for HPNetworkInkjet.sit
It is just that the quality with Inkjets isn't great in most cases.
DJ
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Universiteit Twente
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Derk-Jan 'The DJ' Hartman
ICQnr: 10111559
Mail: mailto:<hartman...>
WWW: http://home.student.utwente.nl/d.hartman/
Goto: http://www.student.utwente.nl/~macsatcampus -
> Well, don't know, I never owned a non-PS printer on a Mac. Maybe you'd
> need gs to convert it to a format the printer can understand and route
> its output to Print.
>
> But the printing system might change significantly in the future:
>
> http://www.easysw.com/news.php?VN68+CALL
>
> andy
He, I just looked at this and it seems Apple has already been hard at work
on this. This stuff simply compiles.
People who really need it can start using this already instead of having to
wait for Apple's GUI.
DJ
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Universiteit Twente
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Derk-Jan 'The DJ' Hartman
ICQnr: 10111559
Mail: mailto:<hartman...>
WWW: http://home.student.utwente.nl/d.hartman/
Goto: http://www.student.utwente.nl/~macsatcampus -
On Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 12:53 PM, Andreas Monitzer wrote:
> On Friday, March 1, 2002, at 11:53 , Marcel Weiher wrote:
>
>> So? Again, what are you going to do with the PS file?
>>
>> There are no facilities built into Mac OS X for interpreting
>> Postscript. The only thing you can do with a Postscript file is route
>> it to a Postscript printer.
>
> Well, don't know, I never owned a non-PS printer on a Mac. Maybe you'd
> need gs to convert it to a format the printer can understand and route
> its output to Print.
Nope, Print does not take other mime-types. PDF is the spool file
format for OS X. Check out the printing system docs and the code. I've
spent about a week getting into the printing system, resulting in extrem
frustration and culminating in a whole string of bug-reports, most
notably "can't write non-USB, non-Postscript printer drivers at all".
Anyway, the problem is not getting something to print, this is actually
quite trivial. A commnd-line utility printing PDFs to Ethernet or USB
PCL laser printers only took me a couple of hours to put together. The
problem is hooking this into the OS X printing system in such a way that
you can actuall print from the print-panel. This is (as indicated by
the bug-reportt) only possible for a very limited set of circumstances.
> But the printing system might change significantly in the future:
>
> http://www.easysw.com/news.php?VN68+CALL
Yes, I saw this. It is great to see that all the complaints/bug-reports
about the printing system (I am sure I wasn't the only one) have had an
effect. Now the only thing that's needed is a hook into the OS-X spool
system so we can print from the print-panel.
Marcel
--
Marcel Weiher Metaobject Software Technologies
<marcel...> www.metaobject.com
Metaprogramming for the Graphic Arts. HOM, IDEAs, MetaAd etc. -
Le vendredi 1 mars 2002, à 09:55 , The Amazing Llama a écrit :
>If you know a bit about the format of PDF files --- which I definitely don'
> So I decided to ask you guys. What's the silly little shareware program
> you always wanted, but never actually found or wrote? What would make
> you happy to see on VersionTracker? What would you love to have to show
> off to your Windows-using friends?
>
>
>
t ---, here are two useful utilities I would like to have:
1/ something that combines two or more PDF files into one, putting the
pages of the second one after the pages of the first, etc. You can do that
with Acrobat, but it is very lenghty, and Acrobat crashes a lot (plus, it
is not even carbonized).
2/ something that convert a PS/TIFF/JPG file to a PDF file with the
correct size (that is, the same than the original picture one's).
MacGhostView can convert (using ps2pdf), but the PDF file has the size of
a complete page (US letter).
Thomas Lachand-Robert
********************** <tlr...>
<< Et le chemin est long du projet à la chose. >> Molière, Tartuffe. -
On 3/2/02 7:11 AM, Marcel Weiher at <marcel...> wrote:
> Nope, Print does not take other mime-types. PDF is the spool file
> format for OS X. Check out the printing system docs and the code. I've
> spent about a week getting into the printing system, resulting in extrem
> frustration and culminating in a whole string of bug-reports, most
> notably "can't write non-USB, non-Postscript printer drivers at all".
Um. I don't believe "can't write non-USB, non-Postscript printer drivers at
all" is true, as I believe both Epson and HP support printing via AppleTalk
over a network and Epson also has support for printing over FireWire [to
specific printer models].
My understanding of this is that to add support for a new I/O method you
need three plugin's to cooperate:
A) PrintModule(PM) needs to 'OK' the use of a specific I/O Module(IOM)
B) PrinterBrowserModule(PBM) needs to 'OK' the use of specific PM's
For example, if I wanted to print to a DeskJet [that only understands PCL]
connected to a LPR server, I would need to:
-write a 'LPR' PBM and perhaps a related IOM [if I couldn't re-use Apple's
LPR IOM] to display a list of available PM's and a spot for the user to
enter the LPR information. I can't use Apple's LPR PBM because it only
supports PostScript devices.
-get the PM to accept using LPR as an I/O method. Each PM must separately
verify that it can print using each different I/O method [yes, n^2, so don't
have too many PM's and IOM's installed]. If HP's PM denies working with LPR
[or there is no driver for your printer], I need to write a PM which accepts
LPR as a I/O method.
Later,
--
David Rehring Psychos do not explode when light hits
Senior Software Engineer them, no matter how crazy they are...
Atimi Software, Inc.
www.atimi.com And totally insane guy! -
On Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 08:47 PM, David Rehring wrote:
> On 3/2/02 7:11 AM, Marcel Weiher at <marcel...> wrote:
>
>> Nope, Print does not take other mime-types. PDF is the spool file
>> format for OS X. Check out the printing system docs and the code.
>> I've
>> spent about a week getting into the printing system, resulting in
>> extrem
>> frustration and culminating in a whole string of bug-reports, most
>> notably "can't write non-USB, non-Postscript printer drivers at all".
>
> Um. I don't believe "can't write non-USB, non-Postscript printer
> drivers at
> all" is true,
Hmm, people very likely more in the know than you agree with that
asessment. Go ahead and try it!
> as I believe both Epson and HP support printing via AppleTalk
> over a network and Epson also has support for printing over FireWire [to
> specific printer models].
It is quite possible that Epson has access to resources not available to
others.
> My understanding of this is that to add support for a new I/O method you
> need three plugin's to cooperate:
>
> A) PrintModule(PM) needs to 'OK' the use of a specific I/O Module(IOM)
> B) PrinterBrowserModule(PBM) needs to 'OK' the use of specific PM's
Exactly. Now if you compare the printer driver sample code, you will
notice that all the targets dealing with I/O Methods have been removed.
If you try to reactivate those targets, you will find that the headers
necessary to build those targets are MIA.
All that apart from the silliness of having the I/O Method decide what
types of data it will accept, or of requiring to write a GUI-plugin to
the Print Center application to implement a new I/O method, which you
didn't want to do in the first place.
At that point, I just hope that Apple makes a rapid and thorough switch
to CUPS.
Marcel
--
Marcel Weiher Metaobject Software Technologies
<marcel...> www.metaobject.com
Metaprogramming for the Graphic Arts. HOM, IDEAs, MetaAd etc. -
On 3/2/02 1:00 PM, Marcel Weiher at <marcel...> wrote:
> On Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 08:47 PM, David Rehring wrote:
>
>> On 3/2/02 7:11 AM, Marcel Weiher at <marcel...> wrote:
>>
>>> Nope, Print does not take other mime-types. PDF is the spool file format
>>> for OS X. Check out the printing system docs and the code. I've spent
>>> about a week getting into the printing system, resulting in extrem
>>> frustration and culminating in a whole string of bug-reports, most notably
>>> "can't write non-USB, non-Postscript printer drivers at all".
>>
>> Um. I don't believe "can't write non-USB, non-Postscript printer drivers at
>> all" is true,
>
> Hmm, people very likely more in the know than you agree with that
> asessment. Go ahead and try it!
Actually, I am going to start working on adding LPR support to my PM soon...
>> as I believe both Epson and HP support printing via AppleTalk
>> over a network and Epson also has support for printing over FireWire [to
>> specific printer models].
>
> It is quite possible that Epson has access to resources not available to
> others.
Possibly. I don't believe it was necessary in this case.
>> My understanding of this is that to add support for a new I/O method you
>> need three plugin's to cooperate:
>>
>> A) PrintModule(PM) needs to 'OK' the use of a specific I/O Module(IOM)
>> B) PrinterBrowserModule(PBM) needs to 'OK' the use of specific PM's
>
> Exactly. Now if you compare the printer driver sample code, you will
> notice that all the targets dealing with I/O Methods have been removed.
> If you try to reactivate those targets, you will find that the headers
> necessary to build those targets are MIA.
Perhaps you need to actually look around. Yes, if you look in the 'root'
folder 'SamplePrinter', the SDKModules.pbproj file only has a PM and some
PDE's. However, if you open the 'Plugins' folder, you'll find a
'PrinterSDK.pbproj' project.
This project includes targets for a IOM and a PBM for USB that build with a
couple of warnings. Note, I haven't actually tried using them, so they
MIGHT not work...
> All that apart from the silliness of having the I/O Method decide what
> types of data it will accept, or of requiring to write a GUI-plugin to
> the Print Center application to implement a new I/O method, which you
> didn't want to do in the first place.
Yes. It would require less work on our part if Apple did more.
> At that point, I just hope that Apple makes a rapid and thorough switch
> to CUPS.
Yes. This will be great. I just wonder why it took them so long when they
talked up IPP support at WWDC last year [and the year before at a
kitchen]... ;-)
Later,
--
David Rehring Psychos do not explode when light hits
Senior Software Engineer them, no matter how crazy they are...
Atimi Software, Inc.
www.atimi.com And totally insane guy! -
On Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 11:14 PM, David Rehring wrote:
>> Exactly. Now if you compare the printer driver sample code, you will
>> notice that all the targets dealing with I/O Methods have been removed.
>> If you try to reactivate those targets, you will find that the headers
>> necessary to build those targets are MIA.
>
> Perhaps you need to actually look around. Yes, if you look in the
> 'root'
> folder 'SamplePrinter', the SDKModules.pbproj file only has a PM and
> some
> PDE's. However, if you open the 'Plugins' folder, you'll find a
> 'PrinterSDK.pbproj' project.
I know. These were also present back during the Public Beta, and even
compiled back then. I wondered why they'd been actively removed (this
requires additional effort, after all). After trying to reactivate
them, I had a suspicion...
> This project includes targets for a IOM and a PBM for USB that build
> with a
> couple of warnings. Note, I haven't actually tried using them, so they
> MIGHT not work...
Hint: I *have* tried it.
>> All that apart from the silliness of having the I/O Method decide what
>> types of data it will accept, or of requiring to write a GUI-plugin to
>> the Print Center application to implement a new I/O method, which you
>> didn't want to do in the first place.
>
> Yes. It would require less work on our part if Apple did more.
Not really: it would have required less wok on our part if Apple had
done LESS. It takes extra work to craft an architecture that is so
interlocked and restrictive, especially when a fully functioning
lpd-based system is already there.
>> At that point, I just hope that Apple makes a rapid and thorough switch
>> to CUPS.
>
> Yes. This will be great. I just wonder why it took them so long when
> they
> talked up IPP support at WWDC last year [and the year before at a
> kitchen]... ;-)
Gosh, I sure hope they don't just add IPP as an additional output method
(maybe also with a force-to-Postscript feature...), but simply throw out
what they have now.
Marcel
--
Marcel Weiher Metaobject Software Technologies
<marcel...> www.metaobject.com
Metaprogramming for the Graphic Arts. HOM, IDEAs, MetaAd etc. -
On 3/2/02 2:49 PM, Marcel Weiher at <marcel...> wrote:
> On Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 11:14 PM, David Rehring wrote:
>
>>> Exactly. Now if you compare the printer driver sample code, you will
>>> notice that all the targets dealing with I/O Methods have been removed.
>>> If you try to reactivate those targets, you will find that the headers
>>> necessary to build those targets are MIA.
>>
>> Perhaps you need to actually look around. Yes, if you look in the
>> 'root'
>> folder 'SamplePrinter', the SDKModules.pbproj file only has a PM and
>> some
>> PDE's. However, if you open the 'Plugins' folder, you'll find a
>> 'PrinterSDK.pbproj' project.
>
> I know. These were also present back during the Public Beta, and even
> compiled back then. I wondered why they'd been actively removed (this
> requires additional effort, after all). After trying to reactivate
> them, I had a suspicion...
>
>> This project includes targets for a IOM and a PBM for USB that build
>> with a
>> couple of warnings. Note, I haven't actually tried using them, so they
>> MIGHT not work...
>
> Hint: I *have* tried it.
What exactly is the problem you are having with these targets?
The developer tools come with a sample USB PBM and IOM.
They compile without needing any addition files from Apple.
I just installed them and I can print using them.
So, exactly why can't you create a PBM/IOM for whatever type of I/O you want
to do?
>>> All that apart from the silliness of having the I/O Method decide what
>>> types of data it will accept, or of requiring to write a GUI-plugin to
>>> the Print Center application to implement a new I/O method, which you
>>> didn't want to do in the first place.
>>
>> Yes. It would require less work on our part if Apple did more.
>
> Not really: it would have required less wok on our part if Apple had
> done LESS. It takes extra work to craft an architecture that is so
> interlocked and restrictive, especially when a fully functioning
> lpd-based system is already there.
Actually, it's the PM that decides which IOM's it'll work with, not the
other way around. However, Apple's LPR PBM was implemented to only support
UI to select PostScript printers. I've had some discussions with Paul
Danbold about adding a PBM that supports non-PostScript printers using
Apple's LPR IOM and he seems to think that it'll work.
>>> At that point, I just hope that Apple makes a rapid and thorough switch
>>> to CUPS.
>>
>> Yes. This will be great. I just wonder why it took them so long when
>> they
>> talked up IPP support at WWDC last year [and the year before at a
>> kitchen]... ;-)
>
> Gosh, I sure hope they don't just add IPP as an additional output method
> (maybe also with a force-to-Postscript feature...), but simply throw out
> what they have now.
Well, since Apple and the major printer manufacturer's have put a couple of
years work of effort into using the current system, somehow I doubt they'll
chuck it.
My understanding of what Apple wants to do with do with IPP is to make a
better form of printer sharing [USB printer sharing only better].
Later,
--
David Rehring Psychos do not explode when light hits
Senior Software Engineer them, no matter how crazy they are...
Atimi Software, Inc.
www.atimi.com And totally insane guy! -
On Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 05:46 AM, David Rehring wrote:
> What exactly is the problem you are having with these targets?
"These targets" don't exist any longer. Why don't you actually try it
instead of just assuming that I'm an idiot? Things will become obvious
fairly quickly.
> Actually, it's the PM that decides which IOM's it'll work with, not the
> other way around.
No. It is the PBM that decides what drivers it will allow the user to
browse for its particular IOM. Since there is no other documented
method of actually installing a printer, this effectively controls what
you can do. IOM and PBM are paired together, so apologies if I don't
always distinguish them clearly.
> However, Apple's LPR PBM was implemented to only support
> UI to select PostScript printers. I've had some discussions with Paul
> Danbold about adding a PBM that supports non-PostScript printers using
> Apple's LPR IOM and he seems to think that it'll work.
Well, it\s good to know that Apple engineers have savvied up to the fact
that LPR is not a 'Postscript only' protocol, because that was the
answer that I got when I pointed out the limitation of both the LPR and
"directory services" IOMs. Anyway, there are some additional bugs that
would prevent that from working, for example it seems that Apple's
LPRMIOHelper always sends the '-o' option that indicates Postscript (and
that virtually no host-based lpd in existence can deal with, including
Apple's own).
Sharing *all* types of printers would have been absolutely trivial in
Mac OS X 10.0, were it not for bugs in architecture and implementation
of the current print system.
Anyway, I have actually managed to substitute Apple LPRIOMHelper with a
small shell-script + modified the XML queue description to specify PDF
instead of Postscript as the output format. This has indeed enabled
sending PDFs via LPR to custom output filters, but it's not exactly
something I would recommend.
>> Gosh, I sure hope they don't just add IPP as an additional output
>> method
>> (maybe also with a force-to-Postscript feature...), but simply throw
>> out
>> what they have now.
>
> Well, since Apple and the major printer manufacturer's have put a
> couple of
> years work of effort into using the current system, somehow I doubt
> they'll
> chuck it.
This is called "throwing good money after bad". The only reason that it
has taken this much effort is that the current architecture and
implementation is convoluted to the point of being obtuse. So the fact
that it's been so much work, with such appalingly paltry results, should
be taken as cue to chuck the architecture, instead of seeing this as an
investment.
> My understanding of what Apple wants to do with do with IPP is to make a
> better form of printer sharing [USB printer sharing only better].
You mean like the way lpd-based printing has always worked? If you want
to share a printer, you just share it, such an operation being
completely independent of the type of printer you want to share.
Marcel
--
Marcel Weiher Metaobject Software Technologies
<marcel...> www.metaobject.com
Metaprogramming for the Graphic Arts. HOM, IDEAs, MetaAd etc. -
On 3/3/02 12:20 AM, Marcel Weiher at <marcel...> wrote:
> On Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 05:46 AM, David Rehring wrote:
>
>> What exactly is the problem you are having with these targets?
>
> "These targets" don't exist any longer. Why don't you actually try it
> instead of just assuming that I'm an idiot? Things will become obvious
> fairly quickly.
Right above the line you quoted, I wrote:
>> The developer tools come with a sample USB PBM and IOM.
>> They compile without needing any addition files from Apple.
>> I just installed them and I can print using them.
I believe my system started with OS X 10.1, then I installed the 10.1
developer tools, then updated both so I'm using the latest publicly released
system and tools.
It sounds to me like you're saying is that on your system, you don't have
the 'PrinterSDK.pbproj' project and the associated USBIOM and USBPBM folders
at the following location:
/Developer/Examples/Printing/Printer/Plugins/
I don't know why you don't have this project or these folders. They compile
and run without needing any modifications. They exist, compile and work
fine on my system [which is only using publicly released Apple SW].
>> Actually, it's the PM that decides which IOM's it'll work with, not the
>> other way around.
>
> No. It is the PBM that decides what drivers it will allow the user to
> browse for its particular IOM. Since there is no other documented
> method of actually installing a printer, this effectively controls what
> you can do. IOM and PBM are paired together, so apologies if I don't
> always distinguish them clearly.
While PBM's and IOM's are mostly paired together, this is not a requirement.
Several PBM's can use the same IOM.
PM's get to say which IOM's they can possibly work with.
PBM's get to say which IOM they work with and get to select which drivers
they work with.
IOM's just sit there and transfer whatever data gets passed to them.
Apple could have implemented their LPR PBM to also support other driver's
besides PostScript printers. But they chose not to, probably because of
[note, I wasn't there, so these are just possibilities]:
-UI issues [select a driver and also a PPD if user selects the PostScript
driver]
-effort vs. return [they probably believe that most of the installed base of
network 'LPR' printers have PostScript]
-they plan on supporting 'sharing' printers using IPP
Later,
--
David Rehring Psychos do not explode when light hits
Senior Software Engineer them, no matter how crazy they are...
Atimi Software, Inc.
www.atimi.com And totally insane guy! -
On Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 10:13 AM, David Rehring wrote:
[I wrote]
>> "These targets" don't exist any longer. Why don't you actually try it
>> instead of just assuming that I'm an idiot?
Because assuming I am an idiot is the much better working hypothesis, it
seems.
> I believe my system started with OS X 10.1, then I installed the 10.1
> developer tools, then updated both so I'm using the latest publicly
> released
> system and tools.
Yes, I just tried with the most current tools I have and now it works.
Hmmm....of course it did work way back when, but when I tried sometime
in fall, I couldn't get the plugins to compile, various headers for the
UI part were missing. What's weird is that the bugs I filed on this
were essentially confirmed, without there ever being a notice about a
fix, or a change of status to "works correctly".
> While PBM's and IOM's are mostly paired together, this is not a
> requirement.
> Several PBM's can use the same IOM.
Yes, but you always need some sort of PBM to go with your IOM. If the
PBM is broken and you can't write a new one (due to missing headers or
brain-tumors or something...), you're stuck.
> PM's get to say which IOM's they can possibly work with.
Which, of course, is also something they don't necessarily know about.
For example, the same PCL driver would work just as well spewing its
bits to a JetDirect interface as over USB. Or to a file, or a
command-line program.
> PBM's get to say which IOM they work with and get to select which
> drivers
> they work with.
This is the IOM -> PBM -> Driver dependency I am talking about. It all
seems to make perfect sense in the architectural diagrams, but the
consequences are quite non-sensical.
> IOM's just sit there and transfer whatever data gets passed to them.
Except they also determine what that data may be, indirectly through the
PBM.
> Apple could have implemented their LPR PBM to also support other
> driver's
> besides PostScript printers. But they chose not to, probably because of
> [note, I wasn't there, so these are just possibilities]:
>
> -UI issues [select a driver and also a PPD if user selects the
> PostScript
> driver]
The fact that UI issues are so intertwined with basic I/O issues is the
architectural defect I am lamenting (in addition to the plugin-approach
and other issues).
> -effort vs. return [they probably believe that most of the installed
> base of
> network 'LPR' printers have PostScript]
Yes, I also assume that this is the trade-off they made. However, the
fact that this was a trade-off they had to consider, and one that
couldn't be easily modified points back to the architecture.
> -they plan on supporting 'sharing' printers using IPP
Yup.
I will see if I can get my stuf to work now.
Regards,
Marcel (trying to wipe egg off face)
--
Marcel Weiher Metaobject Software Technologies
<marcel...> www.metaobject.com
Metaprogramming for the Graphic Arts. HOM, IDEAs, MetaAd etc. -
> So I decided to ask you guys. What's the silly little shareware program
> you always wanted, but never actually found or wrote? What would make
> you happy to see on VersionTracker? What would you love to have to show
> off to your Windows-using friends?
>
> Think Applications. Think amazing. Think different. :)
Everybody's been giving you such *practical* suggestions. :-P How
'bout a little train set with draggable track sections, switches, etc.
that you can set up on your desktop and then run trains on while you
work? Now *that* would be cool. :->
Ben Haller
Stick Software
